For those that are not anti military.
- Thread starter ArmyVet
- Start date
wafflejock
Well-Known Member
I'm not pro military as I'm sure people here could guess based on other posts, but not against people making the choice to join the armed forces (I did contractor work for the USAF for 3 years after college). Looked up the model of UAS though and doesn't look like this is a strike craft anyway just surveillance which really means more information/intelligence and less likely to erroneously destroy the wrong target. UAS in the military is a mixed bag for sure, it stops us from needing to put "boots on the ground" and putting soldiers in unnecessarily risky situations, but can see it from the other side as "cowardly" sending machines to do your fighting for you (but same argument could be made for any weapon/weapon platform I think, if you don't have the best weapon available it's easy to call your opponent a coward for bringing a gun to a knife fight but you're still the loser in that situation).
https://www.avinc.com/uas/view/raven
https://www.avinc.com/uas/view/raven
Stu Diablo
Member
^What do you think they use that "intelligence" for?
I will define military "Intelligence" for you:
To locate targets for killing.
I will define military "Intelligence" for you:
To locate targets for killing.
wafflejock
Well-Known Member
Yah so your idea is we just carpet bomb the whole place cause that's what you do when you don't know the actual location of your target? Or hell that's old tech we might as well dig into that stockpile of nukes we have sitting around right? Having a large portion of our tax money go into "defense" isn't the best use of resources in my opinion but the idea of the US dropping its military is pretty out of the question too we've picked enough battles and are a big enough target to have enemies that require a military. Plato's republic does a pretty good job IMO of explaining the rising need of a military in civilizations competing for resources/power.
Anyway my point was this isn't a predator drone log so didn't likely do a lot of "killing women and children" on its own.
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ArmyVet
Well-Known Member
I will go through this one time.
The 9/11 attacks caused the deaths of 2,996 people and the injuries of more than 6,000 others. ON PURPOSE! Pr-meditated.
The USA in its conduct of the war. Good or bad. Goes to extreme length to mitigate collateral damage to civilians. At times at a detriment to its own forces.
Yet the USA is the killer of woman and children?
Let me pick a word for that kind of logic.
illogical
irrational
unreasonable
illegitimate
incoherent
inconsequent
inconsequential
invalid
unsound
weak
unorganized
foolish
implausible
improbable
obscure
optional
stupid
unclear
unintelligent
unrealistic
unsuitable
unwise
vague
The 9/11 attacks caused the deaths of 2,996 people and the injuries of more than 6,000 others. ON PURPOSE! Pr-meditated.
The USA in its conduct of the war. Good or bad. Goes to extreme length to mitigate collateral damage to civilians. At times at a detriment to its own forces.
Yet the USA is the killer of woman and children?
Let me pick a word for that kind of logic.
illogical
irrational
unreasonable
illegitimate
incoherent
inconsequent
inconsequential
invalid
unsound
weak
unorganized
foolish
implausible
improbable
obscure
optional
stupid
unclear
unintelligent
unrealistic
unsuitable
unwise
vague
wafflejock
Well-Known Member
The death of 3000 doesn't justify the death of another 6000 or many more...
"The Iraq Body Count project (IBC) figure of Documented civilian deaths from violence is 173,686 – 193,965 as of April 2017. This includes reported civilian deaths due to Coalition and insurgent military action, sectarian violence and increased criminal violence."
Also it's not as though we don't plan our strikes too so they are all premeditated and generally with much higher precision (maybe cold but less cold than the killing of unknowns).
In my book killing a person is killing a person no matter how you slice it, we can categorize the deaths/killings into various levels of murder depending on how predetermined and deliberate the action was but in the end people "needing" to kill other people is never a good result.
"The Iraq Body Count project (IBC) figure of Documented civilian deaths from violence is 173,686 – 193,965 as of April 2017. This includes reported civilian deaths due to Coalition and insurgent military action, sectarian violence and increased criminal violence."
Also it's not as though we don't plan our strikes too so they are all premeditated and generally with much higher precision (maybe cold but less cold than the killing of unknowns).
In my book killing a person is killing a person no matter how you slice it, we can categorize the deaths/killings into various levels of murder depending on how predetermined and deliberate the action was but in the end people "needing" to kill other people is never a good result.
ArmyVet
Well-Known Member
8
Two questions:
What in your opinion should the USA have done after 9/11?
And what would you do if someone hurt or worse a member of your family??
Please try not to overwhelm me with minutiae. Simple answers for my simple mind will suffice.
Thanks
Bill
wafflejock
Well-Known Member
For one, I don't think the response was really that appropriate or effective (hindsight is 20/20, but at the time this didn't seem like the right response either):
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/afghanistan/2018-01-03/why-taliban-isnt-winning-afghanistan
^^ this article boils down to neither the Afghan gov't or Taliban is powerful or well organized enough for one to win out over the other. The most recent wars have been against these terrorist groups/organizations that are ill defined and don't typically have one appointed leader who really matters or speaks for the group (as opposed to wars with other nations where we can negotiate a peace treaty with terms, see Japan/Germany post WW2)
For the second question, if someone were to come at me with clear intent to harm I wouldn't have any problem defending myself (if the option is kill or be killed and I am innocent I will choose kill). If I had someone who I was close with who had to jump from the towers as they burned I'm sure I would have a different perspective, but for me sending a bunch of soldiers in harms way wasn't a great response (and then enacting things like the PATRIOT ACT and letting the NSA run wild on citizens data isn't what I would hope for in any case).
Anyhow I don't have a problem with people who have to, or choose to serve time in the military it's more an issue with the amount of US budget that gets blown under the guise of "defense" the "military industrial complex"
I'll end this post with some fart jokes
ArmyVet
Well-Known Member
wafflejock
Well-Known Member
For the first question you asked what should we have done, and my answer is none of the things that we did... I don't know how to put that more succinctly.
For the kill or be killed assuming I'm innocent I see no reason one shouldn't protect themselves from harm is my point, not that I would like to make a choice to have to kill someone else. I still think it would suck (and don't envy anyone put in that position)
I think you are reading me all wrong, I'm not attacking you or anyone in the military for that matter I just don't think it's the best first choice/response to any attack.
For the kill or be killed assuming I'm innocent I see no reason one shouldn't protect themselves from harm is my point, not that I would like to make a choice to have to kill someone else. I still think it would suck (and don't envy anyone put in that position)
I think you are reading me all wrong, I'm not attacking you or anyone in the military for that matter I just don't think it's the best first choice/response to any attack.Am I the only one that wishes they could emigrate to Canada?
I'm all for protecting one's self or country, but as Americans we really have to stop trying to run the world. Not everyone is a fan of our policies and prospectives, and it makes us a target. It's also just wrong to try to force the world over to be like the US. We wouldn't have half our problems if we weren't collectively so arrogant. We spout a lot of BS about being the greatest country in the world, yet by every metric we fail in comparison to other countries (with the possible exceptions of our military forces, American football and Hollywood movies). We don't hit anyone's top 10 list for "best quality of life", not by a long shot. Heck, we don't even produce the best (hobby-level) quads in the world, we all buy parts and flyers from Asia and elsewhere. There is so much wrong internally, tremendous dissonance between our own citizens as to what's right and wrong (this very thread shows that), and yet we waste so much energy on world affairs. Sorry to be a downer with my first post (joined this morning hoping to learn about quads lol!), but this country really needs to reevaluate its worth compared to the rest of the world. Just sayin'.
By the way, I am brand new to quads, I joined another forum last week and quickly realized almost everyone was from Europe or outside the US. I was specifically looking for a US based quad forum, which led me here. I found this thread and thought, "yep, I'm home!" ;-)
We all have our own opinions, and I respect that (that, indeed, is what makes this country great). I hope my first post doesn't make me seem like a hater
Happy flying everyone!
-SkyDogg
I'm all for protecting one's self or country, but as Americans we really have to stop trying to run the world. Not everyone is a fan of our policies and prospectives, and it makes us a target. It's also just wrong to try to force the world over to be like the US. We wouldn't have half our problems if we weren't collectively so arrogant. We spout a lot of BS about being the greatest country in the world, yet by every metric we fail in comparison to other countries (with the possible exceptions of our military forces, American football and Hollywood movies). We don't hit anyone's top 10 list for "best quality of life", not by a long shot. Heck, we don't even produce the best (hobby-level) quads in the world, we all buy parts and flyers from Asia and elsewhere. There is so much wrong internally, tremendous dissonance between our own citizens as to what's right and wrong (this very thread shows that), and yet we waste so much energy on world affairs. Sorry to be a downer with my first post (joined this morning hoping to learn about quads lol!), but this country really needs to reevaluate its worth compared to the rest of the world. Just sayin'.
By the way, I am brand new to quads, I joined another forum last week and quickly realized almost everyone was from Europe or outside the US. I was specifically looking for a US based quad forum, which led me here. I found this thread and thought, "yep, I'm home!" ;-)
We all have our own opinions, and I respect that (that, indeed, is what makes this country great). I hope my first post doesn't make me seem like a hater
Happy flying everyone!
-SkyDogg
ArmyVet
Well-Known Member
For the first question you asked what should we have done, and my answer is none of the things that we did... I don't know how to put that more succinctly.
For the kill or be killed assuming I'm innocent I see no reason one shouldn't protect themselves from harm is my point, not that I would like to make a choice to have to kill someone else. I still think it would suck (and don't envy anyone put in that position)
In the first question, I am asking what we should have done. You are telling me what we did wrong. You did not answer me. After 9/11, what should the USA HAVE DONE???
I'm not taking this as you attacking me. You produce statistics and facts as you see them. I think it's more basic and fundamental. Black and white. You disagree with the USA's response to 9/11, but offer no alternative
You would protect yourself and yours by killing and no one else is permitted to.
The USA makes mistakes. Kills innocents by accident. Yes. Not by intent.
I can show you videos of innocent people being beheaded, burned to death by the very people we are figthing. Woman being treated as 4th class citizens. Woman not permitted to have an education. But I digress into minutiae.
Yet you think the USA is the boogie man here.
Let me tell you a story.
Two young teenagers were kidnapped by the Nazis at the beginning of WW2. Taken by force back to Germany. Worked as slave labor until 1945. Then spent 5 years in a DP/Refugee camp. The USSR wanted them back. So they could be persecuted for helping the enemy. Luckily they were some of the lucky ones who were not repriated.
Eventually they found each other. Got married in the camp had a son.
Then they went through the process of trying to emigrate to the USA. Health checks. Background checks. Skills and craft checks so they could support themselves.
They were "lucky". After living thru communist/socialism. Nazism and forced labor. Those two people and their son were permitted to come to the USA.
I am that son.
Duty, Honor, Country.
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ArmyVet
Well-Known Member
Am I the only one that wishes they could emigrate to Canada?
I'm all for protecting one's self or country, but as Americans we really have to stop trying to run the world. Not everyone is a fan of our policies and prospectives, and it makes us a target. It's also just wrong to try to force the world over to be like the US. We wouldn't have half our problems if we weren't collectively so arrogant. We spout a lot of BS about being the greatest country in the world, yet by every metric we fail in comparison to other countries (with the possible exceptions of our military forces, American football and Hollywood movies). We don't hit anyone's top 10 list for "best quality of life", not by a long shot. Heck, we don't even produce the best (hobby-level) quads in the world, we all buy parts and flyers from Asia and elsewhere. There is so much wrong internally, tremendous dissonance between our own citizens as to what's right and wrong (this very thread shows that), and yet we waste so much energy on world affairs. Sorry to be a downer with my first post (joined this morning hoping to learn about quads lol!), but this country really needs to reevaluate its worth compared to the rest of the world. Just sayin'.
By the way, I am brand new to quads, I joined another forum last week and quickly realized almost everyone was from Europe or outside the US. I was specifically looking for a US based quad forum, which led me here. I found this thread and thought, "yep, I'm home!" ;-)
We all have our own opinions, and I respect that (that, indeed, is what makes this country great). I hope my first post doesn't make me seem like a hater
Happy flying everyone!
-SkyDogg
I guess I could make a list of what makes the USA great. I will leave you with just one item.
Generosity.
https://www-m.cnn.com/2011/12/15/op...oq=usa+people%27s+generosity&aqs=heirloom-srp..
Maybe you can come up with more if you look hard.
Have fun yanking and banking.
LoneRCRanger
Well-Known Member
I know little about the military first hand. That's because when it came time to be drafted for the Vietnam Conflict (circa 1968), it was determined by a Full Colonel Doctor at the induction center that being 6 feet 10 inches tall was TOO TALL for Military Service. Thank you God!
@ArmyVet - I want to be very, very clear about this: I appreciate your service and commitment to our country very, very much, and I sincerely apologize if my previous comments offended you. My father was a Marine, and I very much respect everyone who has worn a uniform in a civil or military capacity. I apologize for my remarks earlier, I didn't mean to come off as such a downer or hater. Having the ability to speak freely about such things is exactly what makes the US great
I'm also sorry if i got a little away from the original theme of your post. I was genuinely excited to find this forum, and this post was quite provocative. For what it's worth, I have no problem with having a strong military, I just wish we'd keep tighter wraps on our initiatives. And, I am all about implementing technology where human lives can be spared. There is absolutely a time and place for martial action, and I for one appreciate precise and accurate strikes, versus the blanket approach.
I'm here to learn about quads, and I shouldn't have jumped in here with such inflammatory comments. Sincerely
I'm going to assume "yanking and banking" is in reference to how a beginner would push the sticks far to hard, back and forth, never smoothly operating the quad. I suppose it might mean something else, but I would like to regard this as a family-friendly place ;-) Indeed, I am "yanking and banking" on my very, very modest Hubsan X4 107c right now. I joined the forum to hopefully get into *modest* fpv racers. I hope I have not burned bridges before I even got started.
Thank you for a great post and happy flying!
-SkyDogg
PS: "Skydog" was guitar player Duane Allman's nick-name. I am not typically a "dogg" guy. Just sayin' ;-)
ArmyVet
Well-Known Member
Sky Dog,
No personal offense taken. Has you mentioned, what makes this country great is "Having the ability to speak freely".
Please thank your Father for his service and sacrifices he and his family made. Semper Fi!
I did not intend for this to get so carried away. I thought the log book was a cool item for sale as military surplus, Although my title nay have started some of this. There are some "military haters". At least in my opinion.
"Yanking and Banking" is an Air Force term for flying aggressively. Its is a good thing. Another is "Turn and Burn.
I learned to fly on something similar to your Hubsan X4 107c. It was challenging at my advanced age haha. When I finally thought I was ready for the real deal. I bought a DJI Phantom 3 Standard. WOW! Flying with GPS is so much easier to learn with. I now tell people if you can convince yourself to spend a bit more now. You can learn so much faster with GPS. Get some muscle memory without having to worry about altitude. But do not use "headless mode" or "IOC". You just end up having to retrain yourself. Go easy go slow. Use a spotter if available.
Most of all HAVE FUN!
Thanks for the reply.
Bill
No personal offense taken. Has you mentioned, what makes this country great is "Having the ability to speak freely".
Please thank your Father for his service and sacrifices he and his family made. Semper Fi!
I did not intend for this to get so carried away. I thought the log book was a cool item for sale as military surplus, Although my title nay have started some of this. There are some "military haters". At least in my opinion.
"Yanking and Banking" is an Air Force term for flying aggressively. Its is a good thing. Another is "Turn and Burn.
I learned to fly on something similar to your Hubsan X4 107c. It was challenging at my advanced age haha. When I finally thought I was ready for the real deal. I bought a DJI Phantom 3 Standard. WOW! Flying with GPS is so much easier to learn with. I now tell people if you can convince yourself to spend a bit more now. You can learn so much faster with GPS. Get some muscle memory without having to worry about altitude. But do not use "headless mode" or "IOC". You just end up having to retrain yourself. Go easy go slow. Use a spotter if available.
Most of all HAVE FUN!
Thanks for the reply.
Bill