help with motor options

[yay]

my conception was more build tailored, so static, though i read someone discussing param modulation.. same as different flight modes, might suit a task.

the task for most quads is to provide enjoyment for the user and current methods do this. you're right, KISS is "good engineering" instead of sophistry, which is PITA engineerinf. i don't have enough ego to develop for the sake of "elegance" or such, but i haven't built anything yet to proceed from. it's something i'll kick around when i'm actually working on hw. once i've got some video of things crashing into things, we can have a good laugh about leaky integrators (nudge nudge wink wink to moz eh, eh).

also to be explicit, i had a good trig teacher but the calc i know is gleaned from years of poring over eg. julius smith's work at ccrma. i have a solid reputation for making "unique weird crazy stuff that works" from "lateral thinking" (i guess we could call it) but a lot of folks bear dsp chops i can't touch. i think of my main asset being having put in enough time to cover all 100 monkeys and it only cost me my youth, middle age..

having learned a bit about rc in the past month, my main questions now are things like.. do these e011 fcbs have any unused outputs, stuff like that i'll have to put the time and money in to chew through a bunch of microcontrollers. amazed to see adafruit nowadays, i happened to find her page years ago about her bubble thing.

vid is APHEX TWIN probably the biggest name in electronic music in the last 30 years. every 12 year old has seen it already. there's some rambunctious language during the intro, but all the tatas are in regulated tata holders. we are british after all.

and if you take a close look at the frame displayed here, you'll see the tata bearers have "digitally edited faces" which detract from their tata value, but that's kind of the thing with the work as a whole so *spoiler*

 

[yay]

i got tagged on the eyebrow by a hornet yesterday and my eye is almost swollen shut. i don't know if that's going to affect the content of this post...

..it was only yesterday evening that i discerned that some product by keil is used for programming the chips on fcbs (as far as i know this is wholly true) which is a deal breaker because i would have to buy a new computer with an OS past xp old toshiba netbooks are like $30 so one of these days/months/years maybe.

i still don't know how this is done.. an "st-link" cable??? don't know. i wish it said things somewhere clearly because as you say, i'm not entirely foolish, and i kind of feel like with my dsp chops, i ought to be able to find that out before i age and die.

a lot of this new stuff really does kill me. like, i hope i can find some kind of microcontroller i can use with my OS (and compiler, which is even older!)

but you see, the thing is, modern society has omitted to communicate how things are done.

after a month of researching rc, what i know is "you needa raspberry pi for dsp, an arduino for flight control" and to me, i don't understand why any processor can't be used for dsp. i'm not some modern imbecile who needs a huge giant processor to make anything happen.

but i still don't know, what kind of device you need to connect a computer to ANY micro board, what kind of compiler or software or anything. you go to raspberry pi at adafruit and you find out... "the new one is better than the old one!" but i still don't know what the blazes the cotton picking thing is. is a raspberry pi a 50000 gHz processor? everyone in the world seems to know these things by telepathy, because i am old and think a product page should contain some kind of concise, meaningful statement about WHAT THE THING IS.

certainly, i can't see them catering to the ancient 32 bit compiler i use *, and the concept of upgrading past XP is like "riiiiiight buddy who do you think you are fooling".

so it's going to take a long while before i program anything, apparently. really really long while like maybe a couple of kalpas.

i'm hoping that humanity learns to produce meaningful product webpages in that time, but, you know, who do i think i'm fooling.


*
you'd laugh and laugh and honestly i think i'm the only person in the world who still uses it but it produces significantly SMALLER AND FASTER BINARIES THAN VIS C STUDIO and is only a 5 meg install instead of lives over half your hard drive like you weren't using it. it's hard not to be burdened with a profound sense of distain against an entire species who fails to recognise the difference between functionality and mooooooooooooooo.

 

[yay]

posted for anyone reading this in my position,

articles at robotshop.com are addressing many of the unknowns i've found other venues are reluctant to approach. they even have a nice "arduino vs. raspberry pi" article, though it really doesn't tell you anything useful, by following one of the product links, i could spy that one arduino product has "16mHz" in its name, so i am now *inferring* that arduinos offer 16mHz processors.

it wouldn't kill anyone to realise that this kind of information is really the most pertinent to understanding what the bugger the thing is. it's great that i can buy plug and play technology, but somewhere, there needs to be a fundament.

the modern era seems to have forgotten this, eg. one has to go through several pages to discern that keil or the arduino api are not released for xp. personally, i remember a decade ago, when you downloaded software, it would say right by the download link which OS versions the software was available for. nowadays there is no information offered, because windows 10 wants to tell you that there's a new movie you will enjoy and you won't even notice all that extra stuff in the media that goes right into your brain and controls you all no one ever notices even though eg. audio subliminal material is super easy to monitor overtly eg. by a simple high pass filter (such as having a small enough speaker to stop low frequencies) and the rudiments of a keen sense of aural attention, then you can hear that those sound effects in action movies et c. have *semantic verbal content* and you are all basically voodoo'ed into pointlessness.

it's no joke for instance in audio, "vst" is the predominant audio format but the vst development community was unaware of elementary techniques like unit normalising a transformed 2d orbit to produce a variety of continuous oscillator shapes and spectra. you can see it in 1950's scifi movies but today this technique is wiped from public awareness because it makes too much sense. modern society needs referential authority so that everyone is slow and doesn't get out of hand. to paraphrase francis e. dec, i'd rather be stupid than stupid and i must go to extermination before i am exterminated. people are terrible. terrible! aiieee.

don't watch television or listen to music ever. your attention is the single most valuable commodity in the entire universe, understand the subtlety of the definition of "entertainment" - it means to hold the attention. conserve it, cultivate it, nurture it, don't let sluts ride on it for apparent thrills, you'll never notice you debility when everyone around you is the same and the media works to encourage you to feel informed and competent.

 

[yay]

one of the simplest ways to make yourself more intelligent is via stochastic memetics (hint: the internet is not sufficiently devoid of intent to be stochastic). juxtapose elements randomly (eg. w.s. burroughs "cut-up" method) and in doing so you *challenge* your suppositions and eventually compulse your brain to function.

as an example, everybody knows that if it's raining heavily, then you have "inclement weather". you say "inclement weather" to someone, they know instantly what you mean. but if you were to say, "unmerciful weather" people have to stop and consider what you are saying, to the extent that in our culture, "inclement" has no usage outside of being positioned before "weather".

by using ("true" or something approaching it) randomisation, you can present yourself with nonsequiturs that *force* you to evolve.

i'm hoping.

the only problem is, once you evolve, you find out who and how things and people are the way they are, and they won't like you. and, they won't know why they won't like you.

 

[Rick M]

...and in doing so you *challenge* your suppositions and eventually compulse your brain to function....

Alternatively, it could just be a self-serving attempt to justify torturing the English language for the sheer love of obfuscation. Oh, and a news flash: they know why.

 

[yay]

some of them, sure.

eh? eh?

remember that one half of my face is the size of both halves normally. but i can still see through a tunnel of flesh that hasn't swollen shut. yet. there's still time! "thank you sir may i have another".

 

[yay]

anyway,

things have occured so that i'll be able to buy some bits and bobs soon here, so i'm ready to move beyond conjecture. if any of you lads have any recs you enjoy dispensing,

at the present time i'm thinking i want a build with 3" props, max around $70 for the quad, say $200 including a monitor and transmitter. posted over at rcgroups, copy/paste below in case you want a go at it.

i'm interested in a build that has enough power to return in winds say under 10mph, not crazy gales et c. but i'm really interested in finding the fine point of performance, because a lighter build is more efficient and more economic. application is for observation, such as exploring hard to climb to places on cliffs, so not racing, not speed. control and agility and long flight time are more important. i need enough power to deal with "reasonable" weather.

i'm good with building from scratch but these days it's just as likely to cost less preassembled, so whatever you want to recommend. ... as long as the motors are brushless so i don't have to keep buying them.

at present i'm thinking along the lines, give or take, of 3" props, 1103 or 13 something motors. maybe 8.5mm would cut it but i think a bit larger would be alright. vaguely i'm thinking, under $70 for the quad itself.

i need a Tx and monitor as well and don't want to spend more than about $200 in total.. figure flysky for the Tx no clue on a monitor yet. i do not like wearing stuff on my head but there's a lot of sunlight here (arizona) so i will probably have to use goggles. eachine 007 or ev800, also looking at stuff like the specfly T-RS2000B 7" monitor. a 4" or 5" flat monitor with dvr would be awesome, i'll probably make do with wearing a towel over to block light (eg. laptops are impossible to see in daylight out here).

i guess another requirement would be a ready to fly fcb as i use windows xp and it looks like betaflight, keil and stuff are only for newer OS. i'd like to get into that someday but i think it's going to have to wait until i buy a newer computer.


i also have some general questions if anyone wants to field them

- what motors can i drive with the eachine e011 fcb? can i throw 8.5mm or 1103 on them, possibly bump up to 2s, without burning it out fast? recommend an fcb? i'm comfortable with only acro, i'm alright with my e011.

- i can associate a motor size with a prop size by finding existing builds, products, et c. but it sure would be nice to know what the guidelines are for mounting props on motors... i understand the 7mm motors on the e011 have 0.8mm shafts, but it's like, i've never seen shaft size listed in motor descriptions. that would be cool not to wonder about.

- i've seen a couple of real casual builds, made out of balsa et c. so i believe there's some flexibility in design possible... but i don't see a lot of experimentation, people tend to use premade frames. i figure, if i were to hack an e011 apart and extend the arms some cm, the flight controller would probably still be able to handle it, and if anything, i'd expect it to be a bit stabler, perhaps more drag and slightly less throttle and responsivity. i just don't have the materials to do this myself at the moment

stuff like the wizard and lizard are just a bit above my intended budget... the new eachine stuff around 90mm all uses brushed motors.. can i replace them with brushless???? the specs should be somewhat compatible otherwise right..?? lantian lt105 is a bit light, arfun 90/95 about right but slightly pricy... the eachine 105 v-tail looks like it would be alright if it wasn't screwed up.. somewhere around there either parts or whole. better than 50m range would be cool, but i can work around there (it's dry and flat here....)

thanks for the discourse folks, it's a complex world and various aspects often venture into contestible regions, i appreciate being able to bandy some thoughts around without getting personal about it or whatever. some of my rhetoric is i guess, challenging to some people sometimes, but i respect the different walks of life folks are from. it's nice when people are different but can still function together.

 

[yay]

prolly worn well past replies,

after yesterday and 4 hours past bedtime the kinkong 110GT looks like a strong contender, having the surprising quality of being rather *quiet* - the video looks like it's about as loud as an e011. of course, for an audio engineer, being quiet is the finest quality most things in the world can bear. almost 3" props and 11 something motors, it surpasses my performance requirements.

most people don't give a dingle about quiet. if i had to start asking people, they would be like, wtf do you want quiet for? because they are not listening. you know audio engineers don't listen like people, for like... pitch... "golden ears" listen for like... partials.... the frequencies of spectral features.. like.. "oh yes the eighth partial is significant" which tells you all kinds of things about what you're listening to. but the average person, has never listened for partial content in their life and would take a while to know it if they heard it.

another contender is the M285 which is much larger and bulkier, but stock is with 1km range. i understand how that is accomplished. but.. today i will spend all day researching those, then i am obliged to see if i can part these builds for less investment. that will take several hours. and of course i'm sure i'll see more options.

the lack of XP compatibility discourages me to custom. i'd like a quad this year, and the concept of spending weeks trying to mess around with a dodgy software install trying to blindly troubleshoot things isn't appealing. XP compatibility is one of those trauma zones i want to avoid because it brings back so many memories of being in hell for ever and ever. you kids who are young you may not understand how that works.

but basically this period of my life is about waiting for browser windows to open and close so i cna move my cursor or attempt to perform some operation like clicking on a button and actually have it function without having to reboot because i had to open a banggood product page and it destroyed my processor. i mean, i can either suffer quietly and get absolutely nowhere, or i can suffer very noisily (thank you vyvyan) and probably get nowhere and encourage people to despise seeing my avatar and handle. i haven't even started looking for a fcb and escs to handle 1104s. and the carbon frame choices for 11xx motors are terrible. you want 8.5mm motors, we can do 130mm frames, you want 11xx or 13xx motors, you can get a 90mm frame. wtf.

i mean, carbon frames are about the most "boutiqued" item in this market. you're not going to spend $200 on a fcb because some entrepeneur is marketing it, but the frame folks can ask a high price for. i found ... i think two options between 100mm and 150mm for a carbon X frame below $25. like.. the lizard bottom plate (90mm iirc??) is only $10 at banggood, so it's a possibility. it's the best i've got but, it's kind of sh*tty that i can't find anything say 130mm that will take 11xx motors for less than the cost of a medical procedure. but i understand, there's no one out there sellign these things who has any dire need for mr. yay to be flying stuff around in the air and developing it and all contributing to the common knowledgebase et al. god help us all if i ever contribute.

anyway, the jokes are not over yet. and i'm sure everyone has stopped laughing and is starting to basically feel itchy all over. but i saw these cute little gear boxes on banggood for a couple bucks... they take the 720 motors of the e011, put them in a tiny nylon gearbox with a massive prop (looks like 5") on them. i am soooo tempted to mod an e011 with these and like 8" piano wire arms. it may not get off the ground.


if anyone wants to volunterr helpful information i haven't discerned it would be cool, you know, something imaginary like... "there are only three fcb/esc combinations that work with 11xx motors, and of those, by far ******* has the best features and is going to give you better out of box performance since you're screwed with XP" but i don't know all that stuff and i hope i don't have to pay $500 or perform any intimate services in order to be made aware of the best choices for building a quad on my budget.

my swollen hornet stung eye got a cat hair in it last night. you know that bukowski poem "the shoelace" where it's not the big things but the broken shoelace that pushes you over the edge. you can feel teh danger here. do you ever get where you have been humming don mcclean vincent for a week just to keep yourself going because browsing is a kind of supernatural torture. "now i understand.."

just having fun. take my money, quickly! seriously, i'm giving myself another week of gonig crazy with my browser. just tell me to buy the 100GT i will be happy. it's not like i'm gonig to break the bank if i put a longer range vtx and rx on it is it nooooo! do you remember corduroy trousers

 

[yay]

btw you know "kong" means "empty" or "zero". so "king kong" means like "king nothing". there ar elots of places in western culture where kong is used.

loads of clever names in this industry, i loooove the chinese mind. great stuff, the three vinegar tasters.

like charsoon, great name for an electronics company. it's honest. banggood... bang is good because if it goes bang, you will be placing another order with us. eachine is super clever in a number of ways but they would need to be explained. realace... well, from the eastern epistemological solipsist view, it means somethnig different than i the west.

loads of cheer from simple things. most western companies don't give you clever names though, just names that sound like dangerous animals or powerful with superlatives or some desirable descriptor.

i figure, if i start releasing models or plans, i'll do so as magnil. that's a clever name isn't it. you don't get it.

 

[mozquito1]

You need Windows 8.1 at least to run chrome apps.. Banging that windowlicker
Video in there out the blue like that was mad. Kinda like putting some annoying rave music on in the library. Tata's in th tata holders, that's some funny achoo.

 

[yay]

so casual chat, i'm out of funds for a couple, but packages are on their way!

saw an ad for "hover 1" which is like $600 and has some ridiculous wingspread like 60cm, totally unlike racers with say two or three prop spans between the props and teh body.

and this is my kind of build, it looks like it's meant to stay up and move around casually, not a racer. more like a daddy long legs than a fly. features a one hour flight time. i remember some dude with a big balsa frame catching a half hour on his arduino test run. course, what it's waiting for is me to have the dosh to buy components really. here's the casual chat -

trying to discern weight vs. power tradeoff for achieving flight time. since i'm mentally geared towards minimalism (haha not posts) i'm currently figuring 13xx motors are an apt choice as they are not "big". paired with a light frame and the biggest battery i can move it with.

change my ideas?

 

[dragger201]

change my ideas?

Yeah.................13xx motors ain't gonna cut it. Flight duration is directly related to propeller efficiencies and thrust. Thrust is directly related to motor POWER(not motor speed). Motor power is directly related to amp capacity of motor and ESCs. Amps is directly related to battery capacities.

Bigger propellers are more efficient. But they require more power. More power is more battery weight.

It's a fine balancing act when you start going for long flight times.

 

[yay]

thank you... looking forward to actually doing this, much appreciated..

 

[Gyro Doctor]

.... Dragger's right about that ... it's a sticky wicket .... lol ....oh, btw, if you're wanting long flight times AND longer distances then forget about 2.4 and 5.8 GHZ gear
and start looking at the UHF stuff, you can go miles and miles with THAT gear

 

[mozquito1]

.... Dragger's right about that ... it's a sticky wicket .... lol ....oh, btw, if you're wanting long flight times AND longer distances then forget about 2.4 and 5.8 GHZ gear
and start looking at the UHF stuff, you can go miles and miles with THAT gear

You will need a ham licence for that gear or anything over 25mw for that matter,
Here in the UK anyway.

 

[yay]

just as a fun nonsequitur post,

goodbye to e011 number three... haven't been able to keep one more than a week. went down on my property, about 10 feet off the ground. found one of the props but spent half an hour and cannot find it though it has to be in a ten foot radius.

so i have three little lego guys who won't ever see another e011. they're well fun to fly, enjoyed learning on them and seeing those red and blue lights. but if you want to fly outside, forget about those videos on youtube. the slightest wind will own them. the slightest wind will own them, i don't care what you say, i've owned three of them, they all flew about the same and while agile, they lack the balls to cope with breezes, that simple.

the second one, after a couple crashes, i guess hit this sweet spot with something, frame alignment or ??? but for a day or so its motors were just totally in tune (i have ears). great little machine. but i feel like each one is a little $17 tiny whoop to my wallet. brushless from now on.

 

[Chuck]

Sorry you lost me at leaky integrators.
I am trying.

He's like listening to vocals from a Pink Floyd album simultaneously with those from Genesis with Phil Collins mumbling....

 

[mozquito1]

Gary glitter definitely sorted that out
So come on come on let get back on track.

 

[yay]

inspired to spend more by internet searches. aliexpress... 20 coreless 7mm motors for $8 aah shucks they're 15mm. snagged 4x 820 on ebay for under $5 shipped, listed as parts for hubsan something or other. someone selling a pair of 720s for $2.49 shipped including props.

i've got three little e011 controllers here all useless so i ordered a e011 flight controller (i like it..) and a handful o' motors, so i'll have an extra quad pending i take a mo to put it together. someone on youtube has swapped out the 7mms on the e011 for 8.5mm, said they didn't see much difference - iirc it was that guy who doesn't seem to fly real well tho so perhaps better results with some attention. looks like there will be some cactus rib quads after all. i wonder if i can run two small motors in parallel and put somethnig together that can handle wind. (i've seen some 8.5mms dm002? that can do more wind than stock e011... not messing with "acro flash" because there is so little conveyed about it and i cannot install keil... i thought the e011 was already acro mode (manual altitude). maybe the stock e011 fcb doesn't utilise the motors to their fullest (and tbh, i have no **ing clue if the e011 is 715 or 720.. most of the manuf. copy says 715 but here and there folks say 720 and all mine have buggered off so i cannot measure them). it's a drag talking to folks who don't seem to want to tell you much about the thing you're talking about so i'll skip engaging the big ol' e011 mods thread at rcgr*ups. 60 pages of "where is the interesting stuff to read?"

"poor arthur, alone in his room reading quadcopter posts on the internet for entertainment. i want you to meat pee pull."

 

[dragger201]

already acro mode (manual altitude)

Common mistake, Yay. It's "manual atitude". Whatever pitch, yaw or roll you are in when you return the stick to "neutral"(centered) it maintains that function. My QX90 is about 50ft up a tree somewhere and I can't find it after 3 days looking........because I forgot that...........