Ok, beat me, I bought a Parrot... recommendations?

H

Hugh Hemington

Well-Known Member
Can I get some recommendations...

A month ago, I got a refurbished Parrot drone 2.0, thinking it would be fun to see what some things look like from the air. And it has worked, to a point.
It has an effective range of 25 meters vertically, and/or 15 meters horizontally (for me, using an Asus Transformer 700 tablet). I won't go into all the pros and cons -- I'm sure everyone has heard them.

It has confirmed for me that I would enjoy using a quadcopter (with range and stability) as a video platform. Although FPV hasn't been very useful on the Parrot apart from getting an idea what the camera is aimed at, I think it would be a lot more important on a "real" quad that can fly out of sight.

Hopefully it won't be too presumptuous to breakdown how my priorities stack up...
Range: 300 meters would be great
Speed: don't care, I'm not racing it
Duration: 10-12 minutes or longer
Looks: a flying dog's butt would do nicely
Size: <1 meter diameter
Night flying: No
GPS: Yes
RTH: Yes
FPV: Yes, but low-res at full range is preferable to high-res that's flakey or half-range.
Stability: As much as I can get. I don't care how high or far it can go unless I can record it.
Payload: Good HD cam and gimble
Cost: less than a DJI 2
RTF vs. Kit: I can build, not a problem

Having an extra channel or two, so I can McGyver extra fun things would be a plus. Later on, possibly a powered gimble in flight?

I've watched got-to-be 100 hours of YouTube videos on quadcopters trying to get a handle on what is available, but the field seems too new to have become sorted out. Even websites dedicated to quad parts are rare. I've been to my local hobby shop and they have a few quads, but they sell what produces a profit, not necessarily what would work for me.
 
Suggestion... You already have a toy. Play with that while you assemble one you can really enjoy a piece at a time instead of buying another cheap toy you won't be able to do much more than the parrot with because you're under budgetary constraints. You saw that Parrot on Woot huh? That's what got me interested in this too, but instead of buying it, I did a bunch of research, and decided to get the Hubsan X4 because it has the same style controller as the more advanced copters, and like you after watching 100s of youtube videos, I wanted something better than the Parrot. I have seen someone on here post their hornets which cost ~$1800. I have also really been impressed with the xhover mini videos. You can search for that on youtube and watch the insane flight and durability videos. I think you can get that xhover mini frame for $120 and then buy the pieces for it as you can afford them. Check out these two sites. OOh I found this aquacopter one too that looks cool. You might also buy yourself the Realflight 7 simulator to practice since the Parrot is not going to train you to fly the other quads. If you want to fly long range, I have learned fixed wing is a much better platform for that. they only have 1 prop to power and you can space the antennas out so you don't get interference between GPS FPV and Radio control. You also probably want a gopro if your goal is photography... The black edition is $400 and the new gopro comes out this summer... sooo...

http://www.longrangerc.com
http://xhover.com/products/mini-x-pro-230-fpv-quadcopter-pre-order
http://www.aquacopters.com/
 
Thanks for the response. I looked at the site/links you posted. I looked at the Hubsan too, but there was just too much model confusion -- some had a camera, some not, I think the "D" FPV model has a lower-res camera than the 'C' model...
I hear the benefits of fixed-wing, but I live in "tree city" so take-off and landing would be tough, and hovering with a fixed wing requires a hell of a head wind. Besides, I used to fly RC gliders and I didn't enjoy the whole "do something this instant or you're screwed" aspect of fixed wing. I've enjoyed the forgiving nature and limited positional stability offered by the Parrot (although it "stays put" about as well as a child in a department store), and I'm looking forward to better positional stability in my next quad.

I've decided to build up a "real" quad. I like the carbon fiber frames, but I also like the QuadLugs frames -- low-tech plastic pieces connecting bass wood platforms arms and legs. The largest one has a "deck" that is 8" x 10" and would give the GPS and FPV a little separation. It seems like a larger "deck" would require more trim if the weight isn't distributed correctly, but a "flying barge" sounds very utilitarian.

I'm still not totally clear on all the parts needed. I know from flying the Parrot that FPV only works with goggles. I see some "main boards" have motor controllers on them and others don't. I figure the main board has to handle flight, GPS, return to home navigation, but do some allow pre-programmed flight? That might be nice. Is the receiver part of the "main board" or is that another board? I'd happily keep the whole FPV system separate, but HUD seems helpful, so is that back on the main board again? Or can it be combined on the ground? And do some boards provide more channels that can drive a camera gimbals, or a wench or other motor or servo devices?

Unlike computers, there doesn't seem to be any place or site with a variety of products and specs. The combination of small market, big ticket and rapid innovation makes stocking a "multi-rotor super store" financially suicidal. I'm not as motivated to save money (ultimately) as I am to avoid proprietary limitations I'm afraid I'd encounter with a DJI or any other enclosed-hull design. Besides, if I'm looking for a flying barge, I've given up on looks anyway.

If you build your own quad, how do you gauge the amount of lift you'll need and how does that related to sizing the motors and blades? Is there a formula or spreadsheet for this stuff? I started a spreadsheet to try and track the parts needed, and begin to shop for them, but it seems that the relationship between weight, motors/rotors, and batteries becomes quite fluid as parts are added or considered. How do you determine the lift you will get from 4x ("this motor", "thas rotor")? There has to be a way to graph that along with the power they all consume as they develop more lift. There seem to be two factors in batteries -- the total power and how fast the cell(s) can dump that power. Then I read stuff about people flashing their boards to adjust for (I haven't quite figured out what yet). But there has to be some flight adjustment to the main board if your arms are longer or shorter, or motors stronger or weaker, otherwise stability can't happen. And what's the pro/con on having longer arms vs. shorter?

Then there's all the confusion (for me) over frequencies. You can't fly and FPV using frequencies that are too close... 900Mhz requires monster antennas, 5Ghz is good, but is line-of-sight only... 2.4Ghz is popular, but encounters more interference. Well, fly-by-wire is out, and I'm losing confidence in WiFi, no matter how many antennas you hang off it, so it seems I'll have to pick two frequencies and jump in. I see a lot of flyers use larger antennas mounted on tripods and tethered back to their gear. I can do that, but I'd like to have the option to pre-configure my quad for shorter flights without all that paraphinalia when I know I won't need it.

Then there's the transmitter. It has to use the frequency of the receiver, and hopefully control all the channels the receiver provides for. But beyond that, what are the options. This whole thing is exciting and fun, but could be a little easier to figure out.
 
Why do you say FPV is only possible through goggles? Hard to do with a screen? I decided to start with a screen, at the advise of others. I wanted the Skyzone FPV goggles...

Well, I'm far from the expert, but I can tell you what I have learned...
This discusses Long Range FPV, and is worth watching:

DJI flight controllers:
http://www.dji.com/products\

Other flight controllers:
www.hobbyking.com
www.wowhobbies.com


I believe you need the following:
1 frame
4 ESCs (10-40 amps depending on the level of awesome desired)
4 motors (These I know nothing about aside from that the good ones are made by Tiger?)
4 props (Can be plastic unless you want to do photography and then you need carbon fiber)
1 Battery (for a bigger quad you want 5,000-10,000 mAh, which weigh ~3-5 lbs)
1 flight controller (These come in a plethora of arrangements and range in price from ~$20 to $1400, you probably want a DJI NAZA M V2)
1 FPV transmitter on quad (900 MHz (huge antenna), 1.2 GHz(big antenna), or 5.8 GHz (small antenna)
1 FPV sys battery
1 circularly polarized transmitter antenna on quad
1 camera
1 view screen/Goggles
1 FPV receiver on remote control transmitter
1 circularly polarized receiver antenna
1 radio receiver on quad
1 radio receiver antenna on quad
1 remote control transmitter (most likely 2.4GHz, hence your FPV must be another freq)
Optional:
1 OSD onscreen display chip for display of battery voltage altitude etc
1 GPS (In cases I have seen them have GPS, the GPS came with the flight controller, hence part of the price range)
1GPS Antenna (I have heard 1.2GHz can interfere with the GPS signal if the antennas are too close)
1module for entering waypoints (The high end controllers are made by DJI. If you get the NAZA M V2 there is an accessory module to enter gps routes, OR you can spend BUCKU bucks on the DJI A2 flight controller that comes with that capability.)

As far as lift goes, with 4 15" props and 40 amp ESCs, the Matrix gets ~6 lbs of lift over the weight of the frame, some of that is eaten up by battery, I think leaving you 3 lbs to play with. Not sure how much lift the other quads have.

The hubsan x4 107c is the one I ended up with (I have yet to use the camera). They make one that is a full on FPV rig for $200, but honestly the thing is kind of disposable. Both leads for the power plug have come off already and I have soldered them back on, and you will beat it up. It's a good trainer. If you bust the prop protector you can replace it. I don't think you have that option with the Blade Nano, whose prop protectors are integrated into the design rather than being a stand alone part. The main point of it is that it has the stick controls unlike the parrot. Ok, have to run. Hope some of that was helpful. I spent forever picking the hubsan if that makes you feel any better.. Hahaha.
 
I appreciate the time you took to itemize the parts list! It will help me produced a more comprehensive build/cost list in Excel. I have seen parts lists on RCgroups, but found them less complete than yours here. Also when every part is specd. from HobbyKing I suspect the choices were artificially limited and not a "best of" type of list. I fully expect to buy a lot of the parts from a larger supplier, but I'm leaning towards a QuadLugs "large body" frame -- sort of a flying barge. I think it would be easier to separate the GPS from sources of radiation on a larger platform. I'm thinking a "snap-pin style" Velcro bottom would allow me to adjust the battery position to correctly balance the quad with various temporary payloads attached. (assuming imbalance heaps just one more job on the controller)

I thought the (linked) LRV comparison was interesting -- makes me wonder why anyone uses 1280 instead of 1256! 1280 routinely gave up long before 1256. I wish they had not attenuated the signals for the test. If the guy was on a motorcycle, he could have just driven a longer route, but even then I expect a video signal propagates differently at ground level than in the air, and possibly even differently between the frequencies used, so there is the possibility that 1280 was artificially disadvantaged (more) in the test, and no distance was given, not that it would have been meaningful with the attenuation anyway.

My focus on FPV goggles is due to experience with flying the Parrot AR2.0 with an Asus Transformer. With "super IPS" it is one of the brightest tablets available, and even with a homemade black foamboard shield, it was very difficult to make out important details under the California sun. This is due to the amount of light your eyes see around the screen/shield, so unless you shroud your eyes to see ONLY the tablet, they aren't going to pickup the relatively dark screen image no matter how you shield it. I see there is a goggle set with a front-facing camera. Odd that they don't allow you to see the camera with one eye and continue to FPV with the other. All the more reason to have a stable hovering craft that can be "parked" when you need to look at something else.

Remaining newbie questions I have:
Are more widely-separated motors/rotors MORE stable or less? Do they make greater stability possible with correct flight controller configuration? Logically, it takes less force at the end of a longer moment arm to move the craft on an axis, but can the flight controller apply that force in an effective and timely way? Or are the arms kept short because controllers can only make "ham-handed" corrections?
Is this what the "I" and "P" values are related to? (I've read that you have to "dial in" your controller if you DIY a quad.)
Are some controllers equipped with a more sensitive or faster gyro (tilt) sensors than others, and DOES IT TRANSLATE TO BETTER STABILITY?
I understand carbon fiber stiffness being a factor, but do some MOTORS enhance stability over others? What role do ESCs play? I have read that ones that can be "flashed" are better -- I suppose upgradable firmware/logic is obviously better.
Does "arm" stiffness impact stability (how could it not)? If this is the case, perhaps a different frame, or arm material would be better, assuming I don't "core" the base wood arms and insert carbon fiber "bones" in them.

I'm still scanning sites and posts for anecdotal information. "Prop X doesn't work well with motor Y", or "This ESC doesn't like that motor or the other controller" type of stuff. Until you pair things, it's difficult to predict how the smallest idiosyncrasies can conspire to produce failure when combined.
 
Oh, and I'm seeing the appeal of the Hubsan! Doing flight controls on a tablet with no tactile feedback at all gets on your last nerve pretty quickly. I have to look down to make sure my thumbs are in the little windows. When wind keeps the quad from doing what I want, I often slide my thumb right off the "pad" and have to look down again. The flight software could be improved by invoking vibrate when your thumb is in the center or vibrate when it leaves the pad, but that's only a partial fix for what can't be fixed using a tablet.
This is why tablets suck as TV/media remotes too -- no tactile feedback.
 
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