Ready to fly vs DIY

[bopchoi]

Hi,

I am a newbie to RC anything. Never flown, driven or sailed a thing.
I am also a photographer and am wanting to marry the two into an aerial photography business.
Where I am getting stuck is working out if it is better to buy a ready to fly quadcopter such as the Phantom or try to build one myself.
I dont know anything about electronics, so not too excited about building one. But I also realise that building one may teach me how to maintain more sophisticated aircraft down the track.

Can anyone recommend a good entry level point that will give me a quadcopter with FPV and carry a GoPro camera?

At the moment dont want to get too carried away with spending buckets of money. I would like to have something good enough to start building a folio of work and showing potential clients what is possible.

Hope you can help

 

[Mike]

Welcome! Sorry no one's replied to you yet. The forum is still pretty new, so we're still building up membership!

I think that any way you look at it, you're going to have to DIY to some extent, so you might as well dive all the way in. If you go DJI Phantom, you're going to have to modify it yourself to get First Person View - and you'll have to drop $300 more for the components to do that. Plus the GoPro is going to be 2-300 more. At that point, you can build something nice on your own. Also, the video you'll get with the Phantom won't be 100% perfect (you'll get the jello effect most likely).

For the same total cost out the door, you can build a nice copter for filming with a proven frame for capturing great video like the QAV frames. Ready to fly copters that are purpose built for capturing images and video are normally up over $10k. There are people who build almost RTF copters out of good off the shelf parts and sell them, but when you crash, you're going to have to learn how to fix your copter anyway, so you might as well save your money and build it yourself - and gain the skills you'll need from the start.

Control boards are very good these days and take a lot of the work out of piloting, but flying still takes a lot of patience and practice before you'll be confident enough to capture the shots you want. I think the best strategy is to learn by building a copter that you can afford to crash, and then upgrade components as you get better. Also, fly without FPV to get your controls dialed in, then add FPV and practice some more, then think about capturing images/ video.

When I first started, I knew nothing about electronics, radio frequencies, etc. and had never soldered in my life. From reading a bunch online and kind of mimicking parts of other people's setups, I was able to figure it all out pretty quickly. I read a tutorial on soldering and soldered a couple of pairs of scrap wire together to practice, then I was on my way. There are also plenty of setups that don't require soldering - HobbyKing sells speed controllers and Wiring Harnesses that are plug and play.

Wiring Harnesses
Speed Controllers

This pretty much eliminates all soldering.

Honestly, building is probably much easier than you think - and becoming a decent pilot is probably more difficult. It doesn't take that much time, but you'll need some hours of flying and more than likely crashing to get used to it. With building, most of the work is in the research.

While the Phantom does have some good features, I just don't think it's flexible enough if you plan to actually turn this into a business.

Are you looking to shoot stills or video? Will you be going strictly GoPro, or are you looking to mount a DSLR at some point?

 

[bopchoi]

Thanks mm
Funny since I made my post I had come similar conclusions to those you have pointed out to me. If I am to run an ap business then it makes sense to know how to build, maintain, modify and repair the copters myself.
Like when you started I know 6 tenths of F&@$ all about electronics and soldering.
I realise I have to walk before I run and that will be the flying skill that I need to develop. I have years of commercial photography behind me so I don't expect too many issues there.
What do I want to shoot? I have a number of markets I will approach. Some will require a good image. Others will want the works. My current inspiration are the Drone Dudes in LA. Are you familiar with them?
The path I would like to take is to initially build a copter that will allow me to hold a gopro or light weight dslr and have FPV. Basically enough that I can start shooting a show reel of work to show potential clients and book work. Is there somewhere you can recommend that offers a good how to guide to building a copter? There seems to be so many things to consider that I am in danger of analysis paralysis. Whatever you can recommend, I am all ears.

As I get bigger and richer clients I will build copters that can take bigger payloads and offer gimbals that tilt and pan etc

Thanks for your advice and replying to my post

 

[Mike]

I'd never heard of Drone Dudes, but I just looked them up. Wow - they are doing some pretty cool stuff and making a business out of it. Those copters they are flying are really high end ($10k+, I'm sure). If you notice, they're using the Spektrum DX8 transmitter - so you know it's good.

When planning your build, you should start with the frame. Most places that sell frames will recommend size/power ranges for motors, speed controllers (ESC), propellors, and flight battery. That takes a lot of guess work out of it and saves you from having to become a physics expert! You can also copy other people's builds as a template.

What frame you start with really depends on how much you can afford to spend on replacement parts when you crash =)

When you're new, you're most likely going to crash. I started out building one copter with a couple of guys to cut down on the cost of the learning curve. We bought a $100+ Hoverthings frame originally and crashed it. Then we got a cheap aluminum frame on Ebay and crashed it. Then we rebuilt that frame a couple of times with spare parts. Eventually went from a cheap KK control board to a OpenPilot CC3D and the stability improvements were amazing. At this point, we thought it was a good idea to spend $200 on a QAV500 frame that promises perfect 1080p video! We got 5 or 6 good flights in with this until it dropped from the sky one day =) $90 in replacement parts just for the frame alone - and we had to wait a week to get them.

It probably would have been a lot better to buy cheaper frames to start out with and to buy multiple for spare parts! Right now, I fly with a DJI Flamewheel clone (same exact design and materials):

http://rctimer.com/index.php?gOo=goods_details.dwt&goodsid=681&productname=

This is a good, stable frame, and has room for FPV and Gopro. Also, there are some mounts for GoPro. The video isn't perfect, but it's not horrible.

*not my video. I should have video from this frame up by next week. I have been flying without FPV and GoPro because I was having issues with my TX (transmitter) and was waiting on parts.

If you're willing to risk it, you can get a great frame for video from FPVManuals.com (QAV500 or QAV400). FatJack from this forum flies the 500 (he's who I started building with). Since the last crash, he's got everything dialed in and has had no issues and the video that comes off of that frame is great!

Also, as far as learning resources go, this is a good start:

http://www.hoverflytech.com/video-tutorials.html

And then a bunch of googling about specifics - or asking here! We don't have a lot of members yet, but the people here probably have run into the same questions and issues that you will run into, and we got through them, so we should be able to provide some good info!

 

[bopchoi]

Thanks again mm
I have a question about frames
If I bought a frame such as the QAV 500, am I then limited on what will connect to it or can be fixed to it? Or is it a little like a bike frame? The components I put on it are up to me and most will fit or can be adapted.
Also landing gear and camera platforms.
Can they also be adapted to fit a frame?
Cheers

 

[Mike]

No problem!!

The components you use are completely up to you, but most frame manufacturers will give you some guidance about recommended sizes of propellers, KV rating of motors, etc. to get enough thrust to fly them comfortably. Some frame manuals give more specific instructions. For example, the QAV500 manual suggests you use 10 inch propellers and recommends a specific brand and exact size to achieve perfect 1080p video based on the frames design. On higher end frames, its best to take this advice, if given, since a lot of research and development went into it. You don't have to though. When me and my buddy first built our QAV500, we used 8 inch props and motors from a smaller frame we had before. It flew just fine, but the video quality did improve when he went to 10 inch props and new slow-fly motors.

http://www.fpvmanuals.com/qav500-manual/

If you're using a lower end frame, they normally have various spots where you can/ should put your FPV and filming cameras, control board, etc. Motors come in various bolt patterns, but there is a lot of compatibility between most motors and most frames. They normally either directly fit, or there is a mounting kit. It's usually best to see what other people are running with that frame to get an idea - you can just google 'frame name' build... qav500 build, etc. This will give you a lot of ideas on most parts. Also, with most things, you can find someone else who has mounted it and find out how they did it, or you can just drill your own holes figure out a way to mount it. Also, sometimes, one part will have a connector that's not compatible with another part that it needs to plug into. At that point, you can cut one of the connectors off and solder on a new one that will work....or, they started making adapters to go between connectors. I know HobbyKing makes them.

Although you can make most things work, you should look at the following as "systems" to ensure compatibility:

1. Frame - Look for other people who have built with the frame to see how they've laid out and mounted their components on that frame. Center of gravity and weight distribution is pretty important in getting stable flight. Also, unless you want to dig deep into physics and spend some money testing out ideas, it's best to stay within the recommendations of the frame manufacturer and/ or look at other people's proven builds and go with parts with similar specs to what they're using.


2. Control Board - This is the brains of the copter. The main control boards on the market now are DJI Naza, Open Pilot CopterControl or CC3D, and KK Board. These boards are all compatible with all multicopter speed controllers since that hardware is pretty standard. They should also handle just about all receivers (for receiving the signal from your transmitter/controller). This decision can be made on its own, and it's something you can change out easily later, regardless of your build. It is the most important part of the copter though.

3. Transmitter (TX) & Receiver (RX) - These components should be chosen together and must be compatible. There are various technologies for sending/ receiving signals as well as other things to take into consideration. As long as you get equipment for planes/helis and it has 6 or more channels, this should be compatible with your build no matter what other components you choose.

4. Battery, Electronic Speed Controllers (ESC's), Motors, Propellors - This is really the area where you need to be most careful about choosing the right stuff, or your copter might not leave the ground. You'll need to ensure your battery has the right capacity and discharge rate to power your motors to get you in the air and hopefully keep you in the air for at least 8-10 minutes. Your ESC's will need to be of the right rating to regulate power to the motors to control their speed. Your motors will need to be of the proper kv rating to turn the props at the right speed to get enough thrust to fly... and your props will have to be the proper size and pitch to work with the system. You can do some raw calculations and physics to figure out what the best combo is here, or you can use one of the many calculators online.... or, you can do what most people do and follow the recommendation from the frame manufacturer or follow what someone else has already successfully done. The last option is by far the easiest! =)

5. FPV Systems - You'll need to make sure your FPV system works on all of the same frequencies and that the frequencies are legal to use in your country for this sort of thing. Again, here - you can do research (which isn't as bad as the last topic), or you can follow what others are doing... or you can buy from a company like ready made RC that sells full systems. Just make sure it's a frequency that you should be using in your country. FPV Goggles pretty much all have the same inputs, so you don't have to consider them as much when figuring out compatibility of your FPV equipment - but pretty much everyone uses FatShark goggles at this point in time.

http://www.readymaderc.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4&products_id=1012

If you're looking for landing gear, you can normally find some that is build specifically for the model of frame you have (oftentimes the manufacturer sells this addon). This is if it doesn't already have landing gear. You can also rig your own. I mounted my battery on the bottom of my copter, so the legs on the frame stopped touching the ground. I took some foam balls and put them over the feet. This gives me soft landings and it keeps my battery up off the ground - and it cost $2. Or you could set up something fancy.

If you're looking for special gimbals/ camera mounts, many manufacturers make them for their frames. FPVManuals is coming out with one for the QAV500. There are also a lot of aftermarket ones that are either for general use (make them fit yourself) or are build specifically for certain frames.

In the end, if you don't mind getting a little creative, or getting your hands dirty - anything is possible and the possibilities are pretty much endless. If you're simply looking to get good video and the best bang for the buck, look around and find out what other people are doing and you can copy someone else's setup exactly. There's no shame in that. When I started out with my friends, we simply copied Juz's current build at the time and since then, my buddy has copied his QAV500 build. He's not looking to be a pioneer - he just wants to enjoy flying and capturing good video.

http://juzfpv.com/quadcopters.html

If you search around, you can even find full on step by step build guides people have posted to their blogs and whatnot.

Sorry for the long response. Hope it helps!!

Let me know if you have more questions. I don't mind answering them!

 

[bopchoi]

HI MM,
thanks again.
I have been doing a ton of research lately and this is what I think my first quad will be
Turnigy H.A.L.
Mainly because there is a ton of info on how to set it up and it seems pretty solid
Flight controller: KK2.o or open source..
Motors: Ntm Prop drive series 35-30 1100kv
Prop: Slow fly prop 11x4.7r SF
ESC: Turnigy 30A Plush if I can get them...alternatives? or hobby king 60A ESC 4A UBEC
Battery: Zippy compact 4000mAh 3s 25c Lipo Pack

What do you think?

 

[Mike]

Ahh - I wrote a bunch of stuff and then accidentally closed the window. Let me try to remember everything I said!

Is that setup copied from something that's already working? It looks like a good setup, but I do have some concerns (nothing that can't be fixed).

The frame is setup to be a + rather than an X. This is no good for FPV because you have a prop directly in front and it's hard to mount cameras and whatnot. You could mount your filming camera below on a gimbal or static mount, but your FPV camera is going to have a prop blocking most of the view. The good news is that I see most people who have built this frame have modified it to be in the X configuration. I saw one guy on a forum say this is very easy to do, but you'll need longer M3 size screws to do it.

The flight controller is good, but it requires a bit more manual setup, programming, and tuning than higher end ones. For example, OpenPilot boards plug into your computer with a USB cable and a wizard basically walks you through the setup and does all of the work to tune, balance, and optimize everything for you. There are a million guides on setting up the KK board though, so it shouldn't be too hard.

The ESC's you mentioned are standard and were used quite a bit up until the middle to end of last year. These were not originally designed for multirotors. You should go with one that is specifically designed for multirotors. Most people buy ESC's that are flashed with SimonK firmware now for quads. A lot of people flash them themselves and sell them, but you can get factory flashed ones from several places, including RCTimer, Ebay, etc. For the reason why you would want Rapid/ SimonK ESC's, read below:

http://wiki.openpilot.org/display/Doc/RapidESCs

That link explains it better than I can. Also, 60A is overkill. Those motors are rated at 32A max. 30A ESC's are usually rated for 30 continuous, and 35 burst. If you want 40, that's fine too, but 60 is way too much. You won't actually gain anything... except more weight on your copter and a higher price tag.

I think I covered it all. Everything else looks good and should work just fine. It's going to be a big heavy copter, but the components are sized to match, so you should be good!

 

[bopchoi]

That's great feed back MM. Thanks a bunch. I had basically made a list of things that people had used to build their own. I want a frame that won't bend easily and can be used to carry heavier payloads if needed. Also I will be using it to impress clients, hopefully. This frame has everything under a plastic dome which looks a little tidier than the QAV set ups I had seen.
Mind you with my skill level I could make a right mess of things.

Thanks for the heads up on the prop configuration. That thought had crossed my mind but I figured having a brushless gimbal underneath would resolve it. Evidently I may have to rethink the frame.
Ultimately I would like to add FPV, a brushless gimbal (210gm) sooner than later. Do I need to reconsider any parts to cover the extra weight?

I still don't understand the finer points of the physics. Is there somewhere that explains x size prop on y size motor will lift z payload?

 

[bopchoi]

Also camera is a gopro type initially but may move to a small point and shoot later

 

[bopchoi]

quick question. I have only found one place on line that has the cc3d in stock. Its going to cost me about $150 to buy and ship it to Australia..do you know anywhere else that has it cheaper and in stock?

 

[Mike]

Sorry for the delay. I've been in a training for a few days for work!

I think your setup seems good to carry the extra weight of the gimbal. It's a pretty beefy setup. I also agree with you that the dome does make it look more tidy/ attractive, so it would be better for impressing clients.

If you want to learn more about the science of lift, etc. you can check this out:

http://oddcopter.com/2012/02/06/choosing-quadcopter-motors-and-props/

Scroll down to "Understanding the Science"

There is a multipart series on the physics of everything. I read through the whole thing once and got the gist of it, but I only got a 10% understanding of everything covered there. It's pretty deep stuff.

There is also eCalc, which helps you put in various specs to figure out lift and whatnot:

http://www.ecalc.ch/xcoptercalc.htm

There is a learning curve there, but it might be good to take a known good setup and then tweak it to see if you'll gain anything.

I don't know where to get the CC3D anywhere cheaper. They always sell out. I had to wait 6 months and watch their site to see when it would be available. Their new board "Revolution" is supposed to be even more powerful. The pre-sale for that is already sold out. I assume they will have some more to sell once they release it, but I'm not sure.

If you can afford it, the DJI Naza board is supposed to be very good. It even has some features the CC3D doesn't have. I think it even has the ability to fly home if it loses transmitter signal, etc. (based on GPS/ Barometer readings).

The KK board is also a good start, but probably a bit harder to fly with.

If you want to get some practice building and flying for fairly cheap, you can build this tricopter:

That should cost you $1-200 with the KK board. You'd still have to buy a tx/rx system and FPV if you want it, but that stuff could always be moved to your bigger build when you're ready. Tricopters are less stable and do fly a bit differently than quads though. It's just a thought if you don't want to dive all the way in at first.

 

[john wadsworth]

Hello There.
If you are thinking of buying a q/c for professional use, I suggest buy the best you van afford an then some, do not go cheap, it does not pay.
As for the quad you mentioned, I thought that they were good until I read a few reports on an American forum,
stating the opposite, so be very carefull.
Go to a pro firm and be prepared to shell out, after you would not do a wedding with a cheap russion camera, would you.
I expect I have only served to confuse you more, if so I am sorry. take your time, and it will all turn out well.
Cheers John.

Hi,
I am a newbie to RC anything. Never flown, driven or sailed a thing.
I am also a photographer and am wanting to marry the two into an aerial photography business.
Where I am getting stuck is working out if it is better to buy a ready to fly quadcopter such as the Phantom or try to build one myself.
I dont know anything about electronics, so not too excited about building one. But I also realise that building one may teach me how to maintain more sophisticated aircraft down the track.

Can anyone recommend a good entry level point that will give me a quadcopter with FPV and carry a GoPro camera?

At the moment dont want to get too carried away with spending buckets of money. I would like to have something good enough to start building a folio of work and showing potential clients what is possible.

Hope you can help

 

[bopchoi]

HI John,
Thanks for the reply and warnings.
I havent read any bad press on the phantoms yet...is that who you were referring to?
I do agree that its probably best to spend more thanless.
I have found a local manufacturer in Australia, Bask Industries who makes quads that will do all of what the Phantoms do and lift around 1.5kg.
Not as pretty but a good quality machine

Cheers
Heath

 

[john wadsworth]

Hi Heath.
Yes I was alluding to the make you have named, it is not proper to slag off other products unless you have personally had trouble with them, so I do not usually name them, but give a strong hint.
the crits came from an American forum, so should be taken as an indication that this product is not univarally acclaimed.
There is a perfectly good firm in England who will build you a quad at a respectable price, they are on ebay, see quadcopters. but I see by your prompt about a local firm, that you are down under !!
Good luck .
Cheers John w .